Northwest Racing

Felt like starting up a new thread today..............

I was thinking about the rule changes that have been made for the last several years. Even back into the Spanaway days of racing.

The cars are getting faster because, in part. The esclating rules packages. The rules change to allow better brakes, the cars go a little faster so people feel they have to buy better brakes to compete.
The rules change to allow better rear ends, the cars go a little faster, people feel they have to buy a better rear end to compete.
It goes on and on...Tires, cams, carbs, pistons, cranks, heads, chassis, shocks, etc. etc. etc.......

At Spanaway they changed the rules to allow better brakes and 10" tires.
I was guilty of pushing the issue. But all it did was cost Me and everybody else more money...........Not one of my better idaes.

I wonder, if it may be better to hold the line on the rules and even retro them some how.

I think that the people in a division may feel like they have to upgrade to compete. Not that they would actually need too... But they may feel that way.

I wonder what the guys that run the mid and back of the pack cars feel? They struggke as it is, and now... "We have to compete with this"
Will they just give up and not race or will they buy the up grades?
Will there be more or fewer cars racing?

i also remember spanaway had one of the first 3rd gen camaros and metric a bodies around here.. saugus was another track that did....

just north of you... at my local late model series has done just that! scaled back the rules. They powers to be went backwards on everything from shocks to steering and bumpstops....

Rusty,
Didn't we try that with LLMRS?

Seriously, the way I see it is this - Yes, the rules gt mroe out of hand every year. Yes, all it does is cost more money for all of us. Some of us have that money so it isn't an issue. Some of us don't, and it is an issue.

I think anyone here would agree that I'm a mid-pack car. So I think I can honestly answer your question about how I feel (I'll let my brother speak for himself). I DO feel like I HAVE to buy those parts to "be cometitive". I usually can't afford them. So I run mid-pack. When I ran LLMRS I think I was a front-runner (winning some races may help prove that). I base that on being able to afford that class because we had rules that WERE scaled back some what. Over the past few years, since LLMRS has gone away, I've been forced to continually upgrade my car partly due to being forced into a certain class, partly to keep up and partly to stay legal. This HAS forced me into a situation where I can no longer afford to run my car AND I don't feel like I can afford the parts needed to "be competitive" any way. I have to wonder how many other people are out there just like me. How many of you guys that have a car for sale would be running it if the rules had no continually changed to a point where you could no longer afford that car? Is it any different in any other class? I don't think it's a "Late Model" only problem. I think it is an across-the-board problem that is sweeping the nation. The ones that have it figured out have good car counts, the ones that don't, well.

The problem with scaling back the rules is this (and we tried it with LLMRS and saw the results) - The guys who have the parts won't take them off to come run with you. You aren't going move things backwards from where you are, only forward. It has been said a million times before, it's way too easy to change a rule, it's impossible to un-change it.

I still hold true on my thought that one of the biggest rule problems we have is minimum wieght. The vast majority of the cars out there CAN NOT get down to the minimum wieghts we have today without MAJOR dollar investments or safety issues. And for what? Why do need the minimum wieght to be so low? Don't you think it would be the same product on the track if the minimum wieght was a couple hundred pounds higher? Who would actually see a difference? That single change would make A LOT of cars relative again. I'm not saying they'd be winning cars, I'm saying they'd be "relative", meaning they would be decent mid-pack cars. But think of the outcome, if 15 mid-pack cars came back then the "mid-pack" would be way bigger. That, to me, is a better product on the track. Isn't that what we are after? And if the minimum wieght was a couple hundred pounds higher then all those "super duper space age mega light wieght" parts wouldn't be "as important" any more, would they? I know I wouldn't feel like I needed them if my car already needed led added to make wieght. But I DO feel like I HAVE TO HAVE THEM since my car is too heavy now, and the problem is that I can't afford them. See what I'm saying?

For me, I'm looking elsewhere for an outlet. I've looked closer at Icar since it looks more like what I can can afford to run, but then there is the travel issue for me and that was what hurt LLMRS too, all the races are on the other side of the mountains for me so everything is "out of town" requiring hotel, food and lots of tow fuel. That makes it less affordable, back to square one. So now the Harley is looking like the solution. The rules don't change there and my bike already has all the shiney stuff I need.

Oh yea, I didn't spell check, so have at it.

The constant conundrum... Progress with the times, or lag behind.

Progress is unstoppable. Everyone wants to go faster, be safer. Speed costs money, how fast do you want to go?

We can't regress, it's been proven that it does not work.

Fact: Tracks have tried for years now to get the "in the weeds" cars back out to the track. Nothing ever does. The guys who own them complain and complain that they need this concession or that concession to come back and compete. They are given them and wow, car count doesn't go up. This tells me that those cars will NEVER come back out, they just like to hear themselves bitch and get tracks to change rules to allow them to feel like they accomplished something that many of them never have, victory. (yes, I know that's a broad statement as a great many people have won a great amount of races, I'm generalizing here.)

We can't "dumb down"(for lack of a better term) the rules for cars that will never show up. Please don't give me the classic, "If you don't you'll never know" answer... We have and it's a proven fact. Just because one guy may actually do it doesn't mean it's going to create a massive jump in car count. And if you do, the fast guys will still buy the best of what they are allowed and still be fast. Nothing will change.

People need to build their cars to the take advantage of the rules that exist. To the best degree that their budgets and abilities allow and go race. That's all there is to it.

our idea was not to bring the cars out from behind the barns.... your right those cars are gone and not commin back... the idea was close the gap between the top 5 cars and the cars racing from 8th to 15th.... and were also gonna pay money for the heat race wins.... yes heat races.... why ? so the cars from 9th to 16th have somthing to really race for. The fast guys will always run in the top 5. But if a car that normally runs 14th can sniff at or get a top five it will keep that car commin back to the race track

BK - I agree with you that the vast majority of the cars that have been sitting in the weeds for many years are not coming back. But what do you do about the cars who stuck with it, struggling to make it work because they wanted to be there, and ultimately get dropped off one by one due to these budget issues, like me? Like bondo_28 said, closing that gap, how do you do that?

Or do you just say -
Quote posted by BigKahuna:... Progress with the times, or lag behind.

Progress is unstoppable. ...
- until we've left them all behind and we have 5 cars each week. Oh wait, that's what we have now, right?

Superlates should continue to progress with the rest of the country, its nice to see cars from all over the US compete in the NW. Those older cars would be more competitive in the Sportsman / Super Stock class. Limited Late Models are also hard to define... kinda between Super Lates and Sportsman in my opinion.

Superstocks have constantly been evolving since their inception.

'57 chevys, '65 Chevelles, 2nd Gen Camaros, then tube chassis.

Constant change and at every stage people had to adapt or be left behind. When a guy could go to the junkyard and built an upper level racecar, ofcourse carcaounts were good.

Fact is good stock chassis/rearend/suspension/brakes arent made anymore and they are becoming hard to find. So EVERYTHING is aftermarket and $$$.

Should we still have the same superstock rules as 1985 (some places do). That was nearly 30 years ago. That would be like having 1955 rules in 1985. And it wasnt like that. Things evolve.

How may 65 chevelles hit the weeds when the 2nd gen came out?

Quote posted by TerribleTim68:BK - I agree with you that the vast majority of the cars that have been sitting in the weeds for many years are not coming back. But what do you do about the cars who stuck with it, struggling to make it work because they wanted to be there, and ultimately get dropped off one by one due to these budget issues, like me? Like bondo_28 said, closing that gap, how do you do that?

Or do you just say -
Quote posted by BigKahuna:... Progress with the times, or lag behind.

Progress is unstoppable. ...
- until we've left them all behind and we have 5 cars each week. Oh wait, that's what we have now, right? Tim, there IS a class that encompases these cars your talking about...Its the street stock/sportsman class that SSS has started this year. Instead of posting on here...look around and find out whats really out there that will include the kind of racing you are looking to do...guess what, its here... right in your back yard. I'm building a car right now for a guy to race this class and for the record it doesn't have a crate engine, it has a steering box, it has a spool and has all the shit that I had laying around the shop. NO COST...Isn't that what your looking for??? Quit Bitching and open your eyes...

Quote posted by vortecracing: there IS a class that encompases these cars your talking about...Its the street stock/sportsman class that SSS has started this year.

What, no use of barbell weights?

Kidding aside, those are good rules and if that doesnt get cars nothing will (as long as the weight breaks work out).

Thorough to eliminate loopholes yet allows variety to eliminate cooky cutter cars.

Do nonported oems run as good as nonported vortecs?

Quote posted by vortecracing:Quote posted by TerribleTim68:BK - I agree with you that the vast majority of the cars that have been sitting in the weeds for many years are not coming back. But what do you do about the cars who stuck with it, struggling to make it work because they wanted to be there, and ultimately get dropped off one by one due to these budget issues, like me? Like bondo_28 said, closing that gap, how do you do that?

Or do you just say -
Quote posted by BigKahuna:... Progress with the times, or lag behind.

Progress is unstoppable. ...
- until we've left them all behind and we have 5 cars each week. Oh wait, that's what we have now, right?
Tim, there IS a class that encompases these cars your talking about...Its the street stock/sportsman class that SSS has started this year. Instead of posting on here...look around and find out whats really out there that will include the kind of racing you are looking to do...guess what, its here... right in your back yard. I'm building a car right now for a guy to race this class and for the record it doesn't have a crate engine, it has a steering box, it has a spool and has all the shit that I had laying around the shop. NO COST...Isn't that what your looking for??? Quit Bitching and open your eyes...


what you said has some truth, but you don't have to be an ass about it.
No cost may just mean it's stuff laying around because it's worn out.
i got a steering box laying around, and it has a dead spot. I don't think anyone is bitching, i think it's just a discussion about rules.
If this annoys you, maybe you should turn your computer off and go back to work on that free car.. i'm sorry, no cost car.

Mike - I have looked at that class and I'm not super happy about it. First of all, I got pushed into being a "super late" when they killed that class in the first place. Now I've invested a lot of money to move my car up to a class I didn't want to run in the first place. Secondly, it kind of kicked several guys in the teeth that are now being forced to move their streets up. What about those guys? Now they get to go through what I went through. When will they end up where I am now? At what point is enough really enough? Is it only a factor when we are talking about late models? Don't the other classes matter too? Look at the roadrunner classes at places like Stateline. Aren't those guys deserving of the same respect as the late models? To me, it's the same topic. You don't have to be spending thousands of dollars on racing before you deserve some respect. A team that makes an honest effort to field their car deserves some respect. And if you think I didn't make an honest effort to field my car as much as I could then you didn't pay attention.

So you're telling me to abandon all the money I spent upgrading my car when I didn't ask to be pushed into that higher class in the first place, and go backward with it now. We've already proved that racers will not take parts off once they have them. There IS an investment there that I'm not willing to write off (or can't afford to write off), more so do it again and again and again and again. And in the end, I still don't feel like the other teams at SSS wanted me (or want me) there anyway. I never really felt like "part of it" there, I always got treated like an outsider, and I'm not super jazzed up about going back there. It isn't a "I hate that place" deal, so don't start that. I just don't feel like it's where I belong. And ultimately, if I don't feel like I belong there then I'm not interested in going back. I didn't really understand that to the fullest extent until I got to Evergreen last year. They made me feel like "part of it" there, like I mattered. When I ran LLMRS, I ran with a group of guys who I feel honestly wanted to see me there each week. My team is not in this for anything more than TO HAVE FUN. If the people around you in your chosen hobby do not help to make it fun then why would you continue? To me, the people around me, and the attitudes of those people, make all the difference in the world. If you can't understand that then I can't explain it to you. Bottom line is, I'd still race at SSS because it's a nice facility. But when I look at where I want to spend my weekends, "nice facility" isn't what I'm looking for.

I wasn't trying to bitch, I was simply debating the topic at hand. Like I said, I'm done "bitching". I got other stuff to entertain me. But the topic was posed and I joined in on the discussion. I love you Mike, but don't try to make me out to be the bad guy. Everyone out there knows where I stand on rule changes, I've pulled no punches on that topic. Somewhere it's got to stop, and asking me to remove all the stuff I added when I was told my class no longer existed and replace the parts I took off and sold is just dollar signs to me. And I'm done watching the cash register drain. I have to believe I'm not the only one. I DO believe I'm the only one willing to voice my opinion, what ever the consequences. But hey, you gotta stand for something, right?

As usual, the money acts high and mighty and in the right. Bottom line. Escalating rules. More money and less cars. Its not an issue for the high dollar teams which already have to find ways to spend their money, but for teams struggling to get a motor in the car or etc., its crippling. The cars with money will run and not notice a difference. The cars without money will be even more uncompetetive or not run at all. My car will stay on stands because i cant afford to build up from scratch to meet new motor rules. Congrats to all the big money people who buy influence on rules and have succeeded in pushing out the budget race team who actually works to pay their own bills.

you are still bitching. it just continues you never stop. late models are expensive in case you didnt no that. kite flying is cheap

I would say you are bitching....you feel like your not wanted at SSS? quit getting on here and telling them how screwed up they are or any other track that has kept up with the times. The LLMRS worked great for alot of you but the economies down turn put a halt to that. SSS has a class for you to run your car in, race there or plant flowers in your ride...life is way to short to do all this BS. I think this new class is going to bring out more of the older cars and thats a good thing...hell you may even see a 49 car out there... some have to move up and some have to move down but atleast there is a place to race them. Get off of the message boards get your car ready and go have FUN, if its not fun anymore then sell it and take up knitting...I bet April would like a new sweater!

Quote posted by TerribleTim68:Rusty,
Didn't we try that with LLMRS?

Seriously, the way I see it is this - Yes, the rules gt mroe out of hand every year. Yes, all it does is cost more money for all of us. Some of us have that money so it isn't an issue. Some of us don't, and it is an issue.

I think anyone here would agree that I'm a mid-pack car. So I think I can honestly answer your question about how I feel (I'll let my brother speak for himself). I DO feel like I HAVE to buy those parts to "be cometitive". I usually can't afford them. So I run mid-pack. When I ran LLMRS I think I was a front-runner (winning some races may help prove that). I base that on being able to afford that class because we had rules that WERE scaled back some what. Over the past few years, since LLMRS has gone away, I've been forced to continually upgrade my car partly due to being forced into a certain class, partly to keep up and partly to stay legal. This HAS forced me into a situation where I can no longer afford to run my car AND I don't feel like I can afford the parts needed to "be competitive" any way. I have to wonder how many other people are out there just like me. How many of you guys that have a car for sale would be running it if the rules had no continually changed to a point where you could no longer afford that car? Is it any different in any other class? I don't think it's a "Late Model" only problem. I think it is an across-the-board problem that is sweeping the nation. The ones that have it figured out have good car counts, the ones that don't, well.

The problem with scaling back the rules is this (and we tried it with LLMRS and saw the results) - The guys who have the parts won't take them off to come run with you. You aren't going move things backwards from where you are, only forward. It has been said a million times before, it's way too easy to change a rule, it's impossible to un-change it.

I still hold true on my thought that one of the biggest rule problems we have is minimum wieght. The vast majority of the cars out there CAN NOT get down to the minimum wieghts we have today without MAJOR dollar investments or safety issues. And for what? Why do need the minimum wieght to be so low? Don't you think it would be the same product on the track if the minimum wieght was a couple hundred pounds higher? Who would actually see a difference? That single change would make A LOT of cars relative again. I'm not saying they'd be winning cars, I'm saying they'd be "relative", meaning they would be decent mid-pack cars. But think of the outcome, if 15 mid-pack cars came back then the "mid-pack" would be way bigger. That, to me, is a better product on the track. Isn't that what we are after? And if the minimum wieght was a couple hundred pounds higher then all those "super duper space age mega light wieght" parts wouldn't be "as important" any more, would they? I know I wouldn't feel like I needed them if my car already needed led added to make wieght. But I DO feel like I HAVE TO HAVE THEM since my car is too heavy now, and the problem is that I can't afford them. See what I'm saying?

For me, I'm looking elsewhere for an outlet. I've looked closer at Icar since it looks more like what I can can afford to run, but then there is the travel issue for me and that was what hurt LLMRS too, all the races are on the other side of the mountains for me so everything is "out of town" requiring hotel, food and lots of tow fuel. That makes it less affordable, back to square one. So now the Harley is looking like the solution. The rules don't change there and my bike already has all the shiney stuff I need.

yeah id have to admit icar is the perfect limited late class, they have an average of 15 cars at every race. When they went to ephrata and spokane they had over 20 cars

I myself have never ran above pure stocks at my track but even that class priced me out due to upgrading the rules, for example 2008 was second in points, was alway mid pack to front dependin on night, we ran high 25s to mid 26s for laps in 2008, i came out start of 2009 runnin 25.6-25.7 with new motor i couldnt compete everyone was running mid 24s i couldnt afford to buy more stuff to make car faster ultimately i parked car and sold it after runnin couple races at other tracks and budget wise cant afford competitive car anymore

Quote posted by murray:Superstocks have constantly been evolving since their inception.

'57 chevys, '65 Chevelles, 2nd Gen Camaros, then tube chassis.

Constant change and at every stage people had to adapt or be left behind. When a guy could go to the junkyard and built an upper level racecar, ofcourse carcaounts were good.

Fact is good stock chassis/rearend/suspension/brakes arent made anymore and they are becoming hard to find. So EVERYTHING is aftermarket and $$$.

Should we still have the same superstock rules as 1985 (some places do). That was nearly 30 years ago. That would be like having 1955 rules in 1985. And it wasnt like that. Things evolve.

How may 65 chevelles hit the weeds when the 2nd gen came out?

Quote posted by murray:Superstocks have constantly been evolving since their inception.

'57 chevys, '65 Chevelles, 2nd Gen Camaros, then tube chassis.

Constant change and at every stage people had to adapt or be left behind. When a guy could go to the junkyard and built an upper level racecar, ofcourse carcaounts were good.

Fact is good stock chassis/rearend/suspension/brakes arent made anymore and they are becoming hard to find. So EVERYTHING is aftermarket and $$$.

Should we still have the same superstock rules as 1985 (some places do). That was nearly 30 years ago. That would be like having 1955 rules in 1985. And it wasnt like that. Things evolve.

How may 65 chevelles hit the weeds when the 2nd gen came out?

look at you tube...the old sagus speedway races....chevelles all the way from 64-80's metric malibus 2nd/3rd gen camaros in the same class it stil could be done

Quote posted by RacerX1622:Quote posted by vortecracing:Quote posted by TerribleTim68:BK - I agree with you that the vast majority of the cars that have been sitting in the weeds for many years are not coming back. But what do you do about the cars who stuck with it, struggling to make it work because they wanted to be there, and ultimately get dropped off one by one due to these budget issues, like me? Like bondo_28 said, closing that gap, how do you do that?

Or do you just say -
Quote posted by BigKahuna:... Progress with the times, or lag behind.

Progress is unstoppable. ...
- until we've left them all behind and we have 5 cars each week. Oh wait, that's what we have now, right?
Tim, there IS a class that encompases these cars your talking about...Its the street stock/sportsman class that SSS has started this year. Instead of posting on here...look around and find out whats really out there that will include the kind of racing you are looking to do...guess what, its here... right in your back yard. I'm building a car right now for a guy to race this class and for the record it doesn't have a crate engine, it has a steering box, it has a spool and has all the shit that I had laying around the shop. NO COST...Isn't that what your looking for??? Quit Bitching and open your eyes...


what you said has some truth, but you don't have to be an ass about it.
No cost may just mean it's stuff laying around because it's worn out.
i got a steering box laying around, and it has a dead spot. I don't think anyone is bitching, i think it's just a discussion about rules.
If this annoys you, maybe you should turn your computer off and go back to work on that free car.. i'm sorry, no cost car.
You don't have to worry about me there Racer.....I DO work on my cars EVERY day to try to make them better. Maybe Tim and YOU by the way, better just WORK on your cars as I do and shut off YOUR computers. THAT "work" doesn't cost a fucking penney and I'm sick and tired of listening to you guys belittle the guys that actually care and want to better the sport. My team spends very little on bullshit and focuses on different set-ups to make the cars better. "With the shit we have" period. Keep posting needless bs on here to try to offset the fact that you don't want to or just don't have the knowledge to compete in the class. My statement remains though...If you just unload the car each week and do GENERAL maintenance you will increase your chances of a better finish each week. Tim, I have talked to you at length and offered up help both financially and physicalally and to no avail. Kenyon...as usual you have no clue...Enough said, I have work to do and I'm done here...UM.

Mike - I know you've offered a ton of advice and let me take some items off your hands that were headed to the dump anyway, but I'm having a hard time recalling this "financial support" you mentioned.

I thought long and hard about how I wanted to respond to the posts from prodigy and Phil. Instead I spent the day in the shop working on my car. I know that's hard for you to believe but I do work on it quite often. Just because I post on here more than you'd like me to doesn't mean I don't work on my car. But you guys only read what you want to hear so it really doesn't matter what I post. So I guess I'll just say this . . .Quote posted by Prodigy:... kite flying is cheap
... and often more enjoyable.

Quote posted by TerribleTim68:Mike - I know you've offered a ton of advice and let me take some items off your hands that were headed to the dump anyway, but I'm having a hard time recalling this "financial support" you mentioned.

I thought long and hard about how I wanted to respond to the posts from prodigy and Phil. Instead I spent the day in the shop working on my car. I know that's hard for you to believe but I do work on it quite often. Just because I post on here more than you'd like me to doesn't mean I don't work on my car. But you guys only read what you want to hear so it really doesn't matter what I post. So I guess I'll just say this . . .Quote posted by Prodigy:... kite flying is cheap
... and often more enjoyable. Tim...I'll continue my comments on another venue......this site is....well lets say, non productive at best. UM ps, if the help I gave you was stuff going to the dump then just return it as is....I'm sure others would find it helpful. Geeez.

same reactions each and every time Tim, its never anything you say or do is it??? UM, I will take your "junk" any day